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BuckeyeDog
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URL icon « on: June 29, 2017, 07:59:40 AM »

Folks, doesn't it look like this mountain is giving Telluride the old middle finger salute?
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FaceOnMars
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URL icon « Reply #1 on: June 29, 2017, 11:30:49 AM »

Along similar lines, I've wondered if what looks to be shaping up as a preservation effort re: the Idarado Mill (giant defunct building near where a lot of people park to hike up to Bridel Veil Falls) would essentially be giving the finger to those who were removed by force to allow for said mining?

http://www.telluridenews.com/news/article_b9a4628e-5504-11e7-89b9-570ebde33998.html

I'm fascinated by old mining relics, especially those off the beat and path; however, the destructive impacts on both the prior inhabitants and the natural surroundings are inescapable.

Remember the giant mine spill originating in Silverton a couple few years ago?  There are still several ticking time bombs in the region on this same front ... yet public funding is first being allocated to iconify said period?!?
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URL icon « Reply #2 on: June 29, 2017, 03:19:59 PM »

Face, you make some good points. I have never been a resident of Telluride, so I don't feel comfortable discussing some of these issues. But I have been coming there on and off since the 80's, and there are a few things that I believe are questionable. The entire east end of the valley was the site of a major mine waste slag heap. The water there used to be turquoise blue, lord knows what was in there. Sometime starting in the 90's, someone had the brilliant idea of basically just covering the dump with dirt. So they trucked in all sorts of dirt and buried it. Then they built homes next to it. I found that quite upsetting. Who the heck would want to live next to a hazardous waste site. It's always in the back of my mind camping in TP that all this waste is buried about a half mile away. But I guess there was not much choice for the town. Imagine what it would have cost to actually haul that stuff out of the valley?
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SaintSteveG
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URL icon « Reply #3 on: June 29, 2017, 05:07:33 PM »

Re: the finger of the mountain. This was my first visit to Telluride, and I certainly thought that is what that formation looks like.

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URL icon « Reply #4 on: July 06, 2017, 12:00:31 PM »

Face, you make some good points. I have never been a resident of Telluride, so I don't feel comfortable discussing some of these issues. But I have been coming there on and off since the 80's, and there are a few things that I believe are questionable. The entire east end of the valley was the site of a major mine waste slag heap. The water there used to be turquoise blue, lord knows what was in there. Sometime starting in the 90's, someone had the brilliant idea of basically just covering the dump with dirt. So they trucked in all sorts of dirt and buried it. Then they built homes next to it. I found that quite upsetting. Who the heck would want to live next to a hazardous waste site. It's always in the back of my mind camping in TP that all this waste is buried about a half mile away. But I guess there was not much choice for the town. Imagine what it would have cost to actually haul that stuff out of the valley?

Yeah, I was thinking about the giant tailings pile just to the east of town park campground as well ... how it's basically never going to go anywhere & what sort of effort it would take to even put a dent in it.   I can only imagine the backlash at the prospect of having a hundred trips per day of trucks going through town to haul it out to some other location.  But yeah, encapsulation seems to be an accepted method of mitigation, but who really knows?  The Ophir valley has at least one recently encapsulation of tailings remnants, but there's still far more work that's unfinished than has already been addressed (in the region as a whole). 

Even though you might not be a resident BD, you're still a citizen of the U.S. and the vast majority of land in the area is public (USFS) and why should only local residents be entitled to steer the ship on these sorts of issue if we're talking about federal land?  And even more troubling (to me anyhow), as property values continue to escalate in the Telluride area, why should only the elite who can afford the outrageously priced property be entitled to an exclusive voice re: direction of management of surrounding federal lands?

IMO, the greater Telluride area could easily have been one of our nation's top 10 National Parks if capitalism didn't get here first.  Under such a lens, would it not be most appropriate to enact the most inclusive and socially conscious approach vs. putting the decisions in the hands of the very few who've managed to "buy in"?
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URL icon « Reply #5 on: July 08, 2017, 10:57:15 AM »

Face, you are spot on. The valley would have made a pretty nice national park, but exploitation arrived before preservation. And it seems that government of the entitled, by the entitlled, for the entitled will not perish in this country any time soon. Hope that TT doesn't get too upset with our political discussion.
Over the years, the town and the festival have developed a pretty beneficial relationship. PB and the artists get to perform in one of the most beautiful places on earth, and the festival brings in a significant amount of revenue for the town's coffers during the "off" season. Now, what impact could these rising property values have? My guess is that as long as TBF and Town Park do not impact the property values, they will be tolerated. Certainly, there must have pressure placed on the town and the residents at some point to exploit TP and the festival grounds for other commercial purposes. I think the most important issue that the town faces is to prevent the local government from falling under the control of those who feel that preservation should take a back seat to potential profit. This will not be easy to do. Many of those new residents care more about the shares in their portfolios than preserving the valley for future residents.
How would a casino look on that slag heap?
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URL icon « Reply #6 on: July 09, 2017, 06:57:21 AM »

Hua, yeah I guess it does look like a finger!  LOL


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URL icon « Reply #7 on: July 09, 2017, 11:29:49 AM »

Hope that TT doesn't get too upset with our political discussion.

Me upset over political discussion? I don't think so.  Thumbs Up

If I disagree with you, I'll let you know. Cheers
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URL icon « Reply #8 on: July 11, 2017, 07:10:11 AM »


If I disagree with you, I'll let you know. Cheers

Of that there is no doubt!  Cheers
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URL icon « Reply #9 on: July 12, 2017, 01:56:33 PM »

BD:  I agree that our country has unwittingly jumped on board an express train to plutocracy and the Telluride area is hardly immune.  In some cases, the deck is stacked to this end.  For example, in the TMV individuals who own at least 51% interest in real property, yet reside and are registered to vote elsewhere are still entitled to vote in the TMV.

As far as the TBF and its relationship with the town:  I think most residents understand the long tradition and believe it's a good thing (win win); however, in recent years, there's been what's known as a "festival creep/sprawl" and there are some residents who are opposed to adding more big festivals and "one off concerts" (i.e. Phish, Neil Young, Pretty Lights, etc.) to an already jammed packed summer calendar.

The Pretty Lights shows seemed to serve as a "flashpoint" for some residents who voiced their displeasure re: booming bass heard throughout town, drug deals, etc. at a recent Town Council work session within the past year.  Personally, I believe the cumulative impact upon "peace and quiet" for residents and visitors seeking to enjoy the natural surroundings has become notable.   Likewise, the aggregate impact of private interests utilizing public facilities at the expense of public access is also substantial.  IOW, when you add up all the time the park's facilities are closed (which includes several days before/after re: setup and takedown), it's actually a big portion of an already short summer in the mountains (perhaps upwards of 20-30%).  Likewise, ticket prices have been on the rise across all festivals & has become increasingly unrealistic for a working class local to pay or volunteer to attend all of them.  Not saying there's not an economic benefit to local businesses or residents, but questioning whether it's worth the "costs" I've alluded to above ... as well as how said revenues are ultimately disbursed.  It's also possible the festival sprawl might be a one way street in terms of some of them ratcheting up prices to cater to a more elite market.

I'm sure the town is being constantly barraged by promoters with new ideas / plans.  I can only speculate about how elected representatives who might be beholden to particular economic factions or interests might posture re: such eventualities, but it has become clear to me the current Town Council is run more like a quasi board of directors for a chamber of commerce vs. anything envisioned by Jefferson re: how a representational republic ought to function.  I've lived in the area since 1994 and have noticed in the past 15 years or so, many of the "old guard" of Telluride area locals have either died or moved away ... many of whom were very active in conservation efforts.  Many of their "younger replacements" are very socially aware on larger/broader issues affecting the country/world (i.e. green, social justice, etc.); however, the vast majority of kids looking to "get away" are almost entirely absent from being active with respect to local conservation issues and would rather be skiing or drinking beer.  Likewise, those who purchase houses are more concerned about property values as you had mentioned ... and also bringing in "big city" amenities.   I believe you're correct about it's just a matter of time before the critical mass overtakes the town entirely.  One idea I've been thinking about which may help in the long run is to change the Town of Telluride form of government to a hybrid that allows for infrequent, but regular Town Meetings where all registered residents get to vote (Ophir is entirely this way) and ultimately override council.
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URL icon « Reply #10 on: July 13, 2017, 03:22:01 PM »

 Wave Wow FOM Mr.FOM Flower You got my vote. Medal

 Long winded and full of info. Yep got to be runnin' for somethin'. LOL

There are new ways to clean up Mine Tailings on site but storage becomes an issue. As we get better at cleaning up it will become possible soon. But with no EPA to push things along and keep things on the correct groove,  well,  very political and Developers usualy win.

I have seen this happen more then once. Sad but true.

 I vote for you the guy with the mop and bucket. Go get em! All it takes is a squeaky wheel at times.

Yeah it does look like a finger! LOL

« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 03:24:51 PM by landshark » IP address Logged

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URL icon « Reply #11 on: July 14, 2017, 05:58:07 AM »

Very interesting about voting in TMV. Run like a condo association. I am curious if the "residents" of TMV are considered residents of Telluride as well, and allowed to vote in their elections?
Agree about the festival creep. But again, where do you strike the balance? Some of it is good for the town's economy, but some of it is plain greed. There have been several stories written, one of them in the NY Times lately, about how festivals catering to the over 55 crowd have become big business. These folks have leisure time and plenty of money to spend for tickets, hotels and food, and probably for drugs as well (like viagra) Sure hope that never happens to TBF, even though I fall into that demographic. It is damn enjoyable to see all the young folks come to TBF, especially knowing that many of them are second and maybe even third generation festivarians in their family. What may, in the end, preclude Telluride from becoming one of those elite market destinations may just be the altitude. Many folks over 60 may not think of adjusting to 8700 ft. altitude as fun.
The shift in the attitudes of younger residents is interesting. I think our educational system, where an emphasis is now placed more on vocation than getting an actual education, is partly to blame. The powers to be, and I directly mean the conservatives, see the ability for people to think critically as a threat. So students are shuffled directly into "job tracks", bypassing traditional disciplines. Once, the role of a university was to first educate the students, by teaching not only the sciences but history, philosophy, languages, etc... When students had received that education, they were prepared to pick and choose all sorts of career paths, throughout their lives. Now, they pick one career path and nothing else. So we now get accountants and therapists that know a lot about numbers or anatomy, but could never carry on a conversation with you about Aristotle or Plessy vs. Ferguson. Just another way to control the population by controlling how they think and work.
And I do agree with you Face, that changing the form of government in Telluride may be a good option.

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FaceOnMars
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URL icon « Reply #12 on: August 04, 2017, 10:25:12 AM »

Been busy BD, but in response to your post:  yes, in my opnion the TMVOA is a glorified condo association with an injection of "company town" control.  An important distinction is that the TMV as a municipal entity is separate from the TMVOA as an "overlay".  With respect to "company town aspect", there's been recent scrutiny re: the ski company possibly attempting to influence how employees voted in recent election:

http://www.telluridenews.com/news/article_b1674df2-732c-11e7-b4db-c3d604fe3aa2.html

The TMV is its own municipality and separate from the Town of Telluride and residents of each vote in their own respective elections.  However, the thought just occurred to me that a person who owns property in both municipalities could potentially vote in both.  This would occur if a person registered their primary residence in Telluride and owns at least 51% interest in a property in the TMV.

I agree with you about the trends in festivals catering more and more to an older wealthy demographic at the expense of egalitarian festival spirit.  It's happening in Telluride as well.  The location of the old outdoor skating rink (aka "kids area at TBF") has in recent years been turned into a "glamping area" at the Telluride Brews & Brews festival:

http://www.tellurideblues.com/files/styles/large/public/glamping_2.jpg

(You'll have to click on the link above, not sure if it's legally appropriate to display directly)

I'm not sure exactly what they're going for, but I believe upwards of $5k.  As a "festival egalitarian purist", I've never exactly been a fan of the poser pit @ TBF, but it's light years better than what's going down in the photo above IMO.   Jazz fest is probably just starting as I type for the weekend & it's interesting how the entire festival once fit into the kids area.  It's now being run by the same promoter as Blues & Brews.  While I have zero qualms against him individually and don't make any moral judgments whatsoever, I fear one day Telluride Jazz Fest may "evolve" to the point of having "glamping" & VIP / upsell shtick be the norm.

It's interesting you raise the issue of higher education models in the context of conservatism (and perhaps capitalism).  I think you might correct in your general take on this, but I just had my first cousin's son visit me this past January from Australia and apparently that's the norm out there re: selecting a vocation up front & concentrating one's studies within said narrow realm (vs. a general liberal arts approach).  Perhaps I'm wrong or simply generalizing, but it's always been my understanding that Australia leans far more toward Socialism than we do in the U.S.  So, now curious if this approach to higher education can be "leveraged" by any political ideology?
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